Student coordinator Ko’u Hopkins co-hosts today with Alivia (a guest co-host and a local Girl Scout who is working toward her Gold Award. Due to the sensitive nature of the topic and her being a minor, she requested we only use her first name). They discuss Dr. Crocker’s immigration story as they take a deep dive into her life under a dictatorship and her life in the United States.
Transcribed by AI with human review:
Ko’u Hopkins: Hello, I'm Kou Hopkins and I'm co-hosting again today with Alivia. And due to the sensitive topics that we will discuss, Alivia has chosen to stay with her first name only due to safety reasons during this sensitive time. From this, in an effort to keep our community relations strong during this time, I believe listening to the voices of our youth always help guide us to a brighter future. I know that when I was young, my voice was the one that everyone would turn around for, and I know your voice will be the same. And Alivia is doing some amazing work in her community, and I believe her voice here today can help others in other communities. Alivia is a sophomore in high school and is working on her Girl Scout Gold Award on the topic of immigration. And for those who do not know what the Gold Award is, it is the equivalent to the Eagle Scout Award. Alivia, would you like to introduce our guest?
Alivia: Today I'm interviewing Professor Crocker.
Dr. Crocker: Yeah, I'm Professor Adriana Crocker. I'm a professor of political science and the program lead for International and Global Studies at the University of Illinois Springfield. Nice to meet you.
Ko’u Hopkins: Thank you so much for being here today, Dr. Crocker. I know that your classes are very insightful and educational, as I have taken many of them. I also know that you have more to your story beyond the classroom. Alivia, could you take it away, please?
Alivia: Can you describe what it was like growing up in Argentina and the conditions that influenced your decision to leave?
Dr. Crocker: Well, I had a pretty good life in Argentina. My family, my dad was a professor at the University, of chemistry. So we were a middle class family. And I was not like many other immigrants that come to this country, I was not pushed to leave Argentina. In my case, well, I fell in love with my current husband of 36 years, almost 36 years. So that was a different story from probably many other immigrants to this country.
Alivia: Thank you. That was a beautiful answer. My next question for you is, could you describe your unique journey to the United States and the challenges you experienced?
Dr. Crocker: Well, it was, I mean, it has to be a challenge for most immigrants to move to another country and have to adapt themselves to a new culture. I was a lawyer in Argentina. I have practiced law for about 3 years. And when we moved to the United States, I realized that I could not use my law degree in the United States. So I either had to go back to law school and start all over again or choose a different career, which I went for the latter. And that's why I am a professor of political science rather than a lawyer. So that was very difficult. because I already had my, planned my career. I was starting, I was working at a firm and beginning the same journey all over again was difficult. But I'm happy I got that second chance to choose a different career because I think I like much better being a professor over a lawyer any day.
Alivia: How did reality compare to your hopes and aspirations when you first arrived?
Dr. Crocker: Well, my story is very interesting because when we met with my husband, we traveled for about 7 years. So not only I had to give up my legal career back in Argentina, but I was just following my husband from place to place for about 7 years. It was a very interesting story. I can tell you more about that later on. So I had time to rethink what I wanted to do with my life. And when we were in Thailand is when I decided to apply for political science and for a graduate degree in political science. And I came back to the United States and I told my husband, I'm done traveling, I'm going back, I'm settled down, I'm going to start my second career. So it was a challenge because I was older. And it was a challenge. It was a different language, a different culture. It was, as I said, a challenge.
Alivia: Do you feel that immigrants add to the richness of American culture? And if so, in what ways?
Dr. Crocker: Of course. I think immigrants do, that's exactly what they do. They add different perspectives, a different culture, different languages, different foods, to the United, to the American culture, which is a land of immigrants. So it adds to the American culture, which after all, it is a land of different immigrants coming from different countries. And in my experience, for example, when I teach in the classroom, not only I can bring my own experiences as an Argentine, But also all the years that I travel with my husband, I was just mentioning. So when I teach, I live in Nigeria, for example, for a year. And when I teach Nigeria, I actually talk about my own experiences in Nigeria. I live in Japan. And when I teach Japan, I can really bring up my own experiences about living in Japan as a foreigner. So yeah, that's, I think having that wealth of experience, it helps my students understand the countries that I teach better.
Ko’u Hopkins: I think a lot of people forget that. I think people forget how the United States was created by immigrants. Almost everyone here is from a person who has immigrated to the United States. From this, there is so much culture and teaching going on between cultures and people that help to shape the United States into something that is better and more beautiful than what it was before. Especially with your experience, Dr. Crocker. Not many can say they have lived in as many countries as you had and be able to give such detailed accounts of the environment they lived in.
Alivia: Thank you. I really like that answer. My next question from that is, what do you wish more people understood about immigration and the pathways to citizenship?
Dr. Crocker: I think that the people in the United States, most people in the United States, are very open about immigration, very tolerant. If you compare it to other countries in the world, I think the United States has, immigrants have this, like myself, able to, if you study, if you work hard, there is this upward mobility that you can experience. And you can experience that in many countries, other countries in the world, including my native country. So I think people are very open about immigrants. The other problem is the government and politicians and what they are not doing. So I think the problem primarily for immigrants is there's no such thing as a path for citizenship. Once you are here, it's so difficult for anybody to become a citizen or a legal resident is an extremely difficult task. And that's because of our politicians do not make policy that help these people that have been in the country for like a decade, perhaps two decades. And there are more Americans than many of us that have no path to legalize their situation. So I think the problem is with our politicians and our government and our policymakers primarily.
Ko’u Hopkins: I know that from a previous interview that we have done, there have been some politicians that are trying to make a difference, like Representative Chung, for example. They are trying to help others. And during this time, it is so important to vote and make a difference. Even if you don't believe that you can make a difference, it is important to try, and voting is a perfect way to do that. And Alivia, I know you have a follow-up to that.
Alivia: What message or advice would you give to others who are currently wanting to immigrate to the United States?
Dr. Crocker: I probably will tell them not to. At this time, which is a very difficult time, perhaps they should try go elsewhere, Canada maybe. But it is very difficult, so I'm not sure. I will tell them not to come to the United States at this point. Yeah.
Ko’u Hopkins: I know that from the reporting that I have done, some are very nervous and scared at this time. They don’t know where they want to go and what they want to do as they are moving up in the world. Especially for students, some in Higher Education are worried about what will happen to them after graduation or worried about what will happen when they go to Law School or to get their master’s degree. I know many are thinking about going to Canda as they want to feel safe and feel secure in the towns that they live in. I think that is just so sad. Alivia I know you have another question.
Alivia: How has your experience shaped your views on politics, human rights, and civic life?
Dr. Crocker: I think I have a lot more empathy for immigrants because I put myself in their shoes and I can understand what they are going through. Most immigrants, I would say almost all immigrants, come here to work to have a better living than they had before in their former countries or their previous countries they lived in. I think I have that empathy, that perhaps I put myself in their shoes. And if you're not an immigrant, probably you cannot have that type of empathy, I guess. I don't know. I'm sure many people do, like yourself. And we have something in common. I mean, most of my best friends are immigrants, and not necessarily from Latin America. I have my best friends from Turkey, the Philippines, and Ecuador. Those are my best friends. And generally, because we share something, we share the fact that we come from a different country. We have something in common. I think that's probably something that I probably share with most immigrants.
Ko’u Hopkins: I think empathy and grace are so important during this time. with so much hate and distrust in the country at this point. We need to have empathy and love for one another. Yeah.
Alivia: That's a very beautiful answer. Thank you. My next question for you is, in what ways did your experience escaping a dictatorship shape your views on human rights and political freedom today?
Dr. Crocker: I didn't escape a dictatorship, but I did live in a very horrific dictatorship in Argentina. I was very young when the dictatorship was ruling Argentina, and I was in elementary school, going to high school. So this was a long time ago. And that I do remember, I do remember, you know, having families, daughters disappearing, or parents disappearing, or kids disappearing in Argentina and not knowing where they were, thousands, 10s of thousands of them, for being opposed to the dictatorship. So for have a political opposition, not anything else. And the other thing is that this is typical of any dictatorship, is that you actually don't know what's going on. So my dad, as I told you, was a chemist, so he was not involved in politics. We were very young. I went to a Catholic school, which was very isolated from what was going on in the rest of the country. But we have curfew. We had to wear a uniform with those blue and white color that was the color of the uniform. And if we wore anything else, a scarf with a colorful scarf or any other color, they would take it away. So that's, and I remember I had to part my hair in the middle so they could see my forehead. So stuff like that really, that does mark, even though I was not personally, my family was not personally attacked, that it does mark you for life, this lack of freedom.
Ko’u Hopkins: I am so happy that you had the opportunity to leave. Those moments are so impactful, especially when you're young. And I think a lot of people forget that. In immigration today, there are young children who are being caught up in these types of countries that are feeling scared and lost, and they just want to go to a place that they feel safe. And Alivia, I know that you have a question to follow this.
Alivia: What advice would you offer to someone facing similar challenges?
Dr. Crocker: I think dictatorships do, they want people to be afraid because that's a way they can become more powerful, by frightening people. So it'd be great if the collective people were able to stand up to them. But it's a personal decision because once you can risk your life, you can risk the life of your family. So it's a very difficult situation to ask somebody to fight. But that's the only way for a dictatorship to fall. In Argentina, the dictatorship did fall because Argentina lost a war, the Falkland Island War. And when Argentina lost against the UK, this nationalism, because that's another part of dictatorships also, really become more powerful with these cries of nationalism, as it's happening, and it happens in many countries in the world. So going to war, bringing this nationalist feeling among Argentines kept them going. But then when they lost the war, that was it. People were very upset. And that's why the government fell, not for anything else. But we didn't know anything what was going on. We had no idea how many people had disappeared. I mean, we heard, we saw, but we did, if we were not really involved in politics, you didn't know until you saw, for example, the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo going around the square and asking where their kids were, that was, or when you saw, or the TV that were not in Argentina. Like, I would remember listening to the BBC, and that's when we were hearing stuff. that we were not told because there's no freedom of the press. There's no freedom to speak, to assemble, to much of anything.
Ko’u Hopkins: That is very scary to think of. Simple rights being taken away. I know that many people take for granted. These rights are just going away and you have to listen to stations that are outside of your country. That's a really impactful moment as you realize that you can't trust anything in your own backyard.
Alivia: How can fellow Americans support immigrant rights?
Dr. Crocker: By voting. Voting for those who do support immigration reform. I do not believe that has been a serious immigration reform since 1986, so many, many years. And as I said, there's these people stuck in like 20 years or 30 years have been living in the US and they haven't been able to get a permanent residency or a path to citizenship. That should be reform. I think there should be immigration reform. So voting for those who propose some kind of immigration reform will be one way. Perhaps joining a nonprofit organization that deals with immigration and help out those in need, and speaking up, which could be, you know, some people may be afraid of doing that at this point.
Alivia: How do you navigate discussions with individuals who oppose immigration or do not understand the path to citizenship?
Dr. Crocker: Well, maybe because of the way I sound, I haven't had anybody talking to me and saying anything bad about immigrants. Perhaps it happens to American citizens, but it has not happened to me. The people who I talk to generally are very supportive of immigrants' rights, but as I said, it's probably because of my accent.
Alivia: Are you concerned with the recent actions of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, otherwise known as ICE?
Dr. Crocker: Yeah, who shouldn't be concerned? I think we are not sure of the power structure, who the leadership or lack of thereof, what their limitations, I mean, what they can and they cannot do. They are more; they have weapons for war rather than for peace or order. So it is really scary.
Alivia: So I wanted to circle back to something you had mentioned earlier, and that was the seven years you spent traveling with your husband. Could you please expand on that?
Dr. Crocker: Yeah. So he worked for a company, Honeywell, and so we were sent from country to country. We didn't know whether it'll be winter or summer, so we had about four or five different suitcases each. And we were traveling from country to country from like 3 weeks up to 8 months. And so we live in South Africa. I was just talking to your mom in 1990 during when Mandela was running for president. It was an amazing time to be there. We lived in Nigeria in 1993, for about a year. And we stayed in Thailand for about 8 months. Korea, this was 1989, so it was a very different Korea than what it is now. And we were in a very rural area by the Yellow Sea. Beautiful, for one year. And then sometimes we were in really amazing places too, like we lived in Greece and in Antwerp and Argentina several times, Venezuela before Chavez. So yeah, I was really lucky and Japan I wish I love Japan. I wish I would have been a little older, I think, because at the time I was in my 20s and I think I was not adventurous enough, to try new food or to just get on a train and go. And we were in Hiroshima in Japan and I didn't go to Kyoto. And I just, I'm saying, why didn't I take the train? I went to Kyoto to see all those temples. And so I wish, if I had to go again, I would be a lot more adventurous and I'd probably see a lot more places. But it was an amazing way to learn about culture. And what struck me also is how much, for example, the Japanese knew about Argentina. When I came to the US, nobody knew much about Argentina. They would ask me whether I like burritos, and we don't eat burritos in Argentina. Food is completely different from burritos or Mexican food, but nobody knows that or knew that. But in Japan, they knew about Patagonia, the southern part of Argentina. They knew about, apart from the soccer players, because that's what most people know about, So it's very interesting how well educated the Japanese are and that was interesting.
Alivia: So of all those places, was Japan your favorite?
Dr. Crocker: No, Nigeria was my favorite. Even though it was a time when there was a coup, we were almost had to leave because of this coup. So it was a very tumultuous time. I enjoy it because of the culture and the people were super warm. And I have so many stories about Nigeria that really, really enjoyed it. I would love to go to several African countries back. That would be the place I'd like to learn more about and travel to.
Alivia: Great. Thank you for that. I really enjoyed those stories. And it's great to hear the type of experiences that people can have in other countries and in America as well. And it's really amazing that you had those experiences.
Dr. Crocker: Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for talking to us and what you do for the Scouts.
Alivia: Yes, thank you for letting me interview you.
Ko’u Hopkins: Thank you so much, Dr. Crocker, for coming in today. And thank you, Alivia, for co-hosting again. Remember, though your voice is young, it is strong, and people will listen to the voice of the future. And thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Until next time.
