ADRIAN MA, HOST:
Has the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences finally embraced horror? Horror movies are up for a record number of awards at this year's Oscars, and my colleague Emily Kwong has more on that.
EMILY KWONG, HOST:
There are three distinctive takes on the horror genre in contention for major awards, like the movie about 17 children disappearing into the night.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WEAPONS")
AMY MADIGAN: (As Gladys) Now, when I tell you that you are not to speak about me or your parents to anyone, you understand what can happen if you break your promise?
KWONG: That's Amy Madigan, nominated for her bewitching turn in the movie "Weapons." And then there's Guillermo del Toro's "Frankenstein," which received nine Oscar nominations, including best picture, director and supporting actor.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FRANKENSTEIN")
LARS MIKKELSEN: (As Captain Anderson) What manner of creature is that? What manner of devil made it?
KWONG: And, of course, Ryan Coogler's film about Southern vampires and the blues, "Sinners," which received a record 16 Oscar nods.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SINNERS")
SAUL WILLIAMS: (As Jedidiah) You keep dancing with the devil, one day he's going to follow you home.
KWONG: So is the Academy, which has largely overlooked horror films, finally embracing them? Or have films found a way to incorporate horror in a way that appeals to the Academy's taste? To debate, we brought in two ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producers, Marc Rivers, who produces our Cineplexity segment. Hello.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Emily.
KWONG: And our resident horror film buff, Brianna Scott - hey.
BRIANNA SCOTT, BYLINE: Hello.
KWONG: OK. Like, let's talk about the Academy's relationship with horror over the years.
SCOTT: OK.
RIVERS: That's a tough one.
KWONG: Yeah.
SCOTT: I mean, so I am horror nerd, and I'm a journalist. So I did some reporting back in 2024 about why horror is sort of the black sheep of the Oscars family.
KWONG: Yeah.
SCOTT: And the thing is, is that a lot of the horror movies in the past that have been up for some sort of nomination at the Oscars, they've been labeled as something other than horror. So I'm thinking about "What Ever Happened To Baby Jane?" which is about two sisters, both former movie stars who do not get along. One of the sisters absolutely terrorizes the other.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE?")
BETTE DAVIS: (As Baby Jane Hudson) Blanche, you aren't ever going to sell this house, and you aren't ever going to leave it.
SCOTT: That was billed as a psychological thriller. "The Exorcist," a religious drama, which is putting it very, very lightly.
RIVERS: Yes.
KWONG: (Laughter).
RIVERS: It's quaint. It's a quaint reading on that.
KWONG: These are some euphemisms.
SCOTT: Yes. And "Get Out," a social thriller.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GET OUT")
CATHERINE KEENER: (As Missy Armitage) You can't move.
DANIEL KALUUYA: (As Chris Washington) Why can't I move?
KEENER: (As Missy Armitage) You're paralyzed. Just like that day when you did nothing. You did nothing.
RIVERS: I hate that phrase. Really, throw that phrase out. I really can't stand that.
(LAUGHTER)
SCOTT: So whether people, you know, want to debate if these are true horror or not, they're at least horror-adjacent.
KWONG: Yeah.
SCOTT: But, you know, these types of movies have been given a different label because if they were to be labeled as horror, they just typically haven't been as respected by the Academy. And, you know, the first and last time a horror film won best picture was in 1992 for "Silence Of The Lambs."
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ANTHONY HOPKINS: (As Dr. Hannibal Lecter) A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
RIVERS: And even that one's kind of questionable as far as, like, whether it's horror or not, you know?
SCOTT: He's making a human skin suit.
KWONG: I don't know. I was pretty scared watching that dude.
RIVERS: So there are horror elements to that.
KWONG: (Laughter) Spoilers.
SCOTT: You can draw a direct line from "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" to "Silence Of The Lambs" to "Terrifier."
RIVERS: Sure. Sure.
SCOTT: OK? It's horror.
RIVERS: I think what's really interesting is that this isn't the same Academy that gave best picture to "A Beautiful Mind" or "The English Patient." You know, this is a younger, more diverse, dare I say, gnarlier (ph) Academy, right?
KWONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: Like - and, you know, I think...
KWONG: They can handle some fake blood.
SCOTT: Yeah.
RIVERS: Right. And like, there's nothing wrong with those movies that I just mentioned, you know, but those are the kind of movies that you take home to grandma. Those are the kind of movies that know the difference between a shrimp fork and a cocktail fork, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
KWONG: Oh, my gosh.
RIVERS: And these kind of movies that you just mentioned, like, these movies are going to stab you with the fork, right? So I think really what's happened is the Academy has diversified its members, and those members are a little more embracing of horror. And I think also what's happened is what seems to be a new embracing or a stronger embracing of the genre speaks to the genre's kind of importance to cinema as a kind of pop cultural entity, if you will. I think horror is the one genre that it doesn't need to be established IP.
SCOTT: Yep.
RIVERS: It doesn't need to be anchored by big-time stars. Horror is that one genre today, to me, that - where you can just sell it based off, like, this looks good. I got to see that.
KWONG: Let's look at the horror podium coming to the Oscars - "Weapons," "Sinners," "Frankenstein" - different movies. What do you think these films are doing that appeals to the Academy? Or has horror broken through in a permanent way?
SCOTT: I mean, I don't necessarily know if they've broken through in a permanent way. I'll be curious to see if, like, horror has this sort of permanent seat at the table with the Academy. But I think that Academy voters are recognizing that horror goes beyond the gore and the jump scares. And I want to get a little granular here and talk about "Weapons" because, you know, this is a movie where a classroom full of kids go missing in the middle of the night. And, you know, there are a lot of ways to interpret "Weapons" beyond what the director, Zach Cregger, intended, but I see a clear theme about grief. With "Weapons," that grief happens out of nowhere with no explanation.
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JOSH BROLIN: (As Archer) We're talking about 17 kids in one classroom. I want to know what happened in that classroom. Why just her classroom? Why only hers?
SCOTT: I feel like the Academy wants something to chew on. They want something meaningful.
RIVERS: I think one thing the Academy likes or one thing you'll see with who gets nominated is they've probably been there before. So, you know, Guillermo del Toro, Ryan Coogler, they've already kind of broken through the kind of genre barrier, you know?
KWONG: They established their artistic credibility.
RIVERS: Right. Guillermo del Toro won - his film, "The Shape Of Water" won best picture. He got a directing Oscar for that. Ryan Coogler's "Black Panther" was nominated...
KWONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...For best picture, you know, the first superhero movie to ever be nominated. Amy Madigan, she's been nominated before for 1985's "Twice In A Lifetime." So these folks, they've been there before. They've been recognized by Oscars before.
SCOTT: They're established.
RIVERS: Yeah, established names.
KWONG: What you're saying, Marc, about how these artists have established some credibility before...
RIVERS: Yeah.
KWONG: ...In that sense, is it that they're legitimizing horror? Or has horror never needed to be legitimized, and it's just that the Academy needed to...
RIVERS: I don't - the Academy...
KWONG: ...Be more open?
RIVERS: They needed to get cool.
KWONG: (Laughter).
SCOTT: Yeah, yeah.
RIVERS: Like, they were a little based, like, a little standard.
KWONG: Yeah, I agree.
RIVERS: And they need to get to horror's level. I don't think horror ever needed the Academy. The Academy needed horror. There have been discussions around, you know, the Academy nominating movies that no one has ever heard of.
SCOTT: Yeah.
RIVERS: Like, what's "No Man's Land"? Who - what is a "CODA"? You know, like...
SCOTT: No one knows.
RIVERS: Right.
SCOTT: Sorry.
RIVERS: Like, the average moviegoer might be missing those things.
KWONG: Right.
RIVERS: But people know "Sinners." They've watched "Sinners." They've seen "Weapons," and that might get folk more interested. Like, it's the movies that bring people to the Academy. It's not whatever the telecast does or making it shorter or longer. You got to just nominate the movies that people saw.
KWONG: What are some performances that you feel have been snubbed - or films - by the Oscars? Let it out, Bri.
RIVERS: (Laughter).
SCOTT: This is my Roman Empire. OK, there are a lot of horror movies and performances that have been snubbed by the Academy, but I think that collectively, horror fans would come after me if I did not mention Toni Collette in Ari Aster's "Hereditary."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HEREDITARY")
MILLY SHAPIRO: (As Charlie) Who's going to take care of me?
TONI COLLETTE: (As Annie) You don't think I'm going to take care of you?
SHAPIRO: (As Charlie) But when you die?
SCOTT: So in "Hereditary," Toni Collette's character, Annie, comes to blame her son Peter, played by Alex Wolf, for this terrible family tragedy, and all her feelings come to a head in this crazy dinner.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HEREDITARY")
COLLETTE: (As Annie) ...So annoyed. Well, now your sister is dead. And I know you miss her. And I know it was an accident, and I know you're in pain. And I wish I could take that away for you. I wish I could shield you from the knowledge that you did what you did, but your sister is dead.
SCOTT: Toni Collette's character, you know, in that movie, it just really cut me deep. I mean, the way that she evokes pain, bitterness, grief, rage, resentment, I think it's a master class in the range of emotions that a actor can express. And I definitely think that "Hereditary" should have been up for a nomination for best picture.
KWONG: OK.
SCOTT: I think it would have been up in 2018. And I do think that Toni Collette should have been up for best leading actress.
KWONG: Wow. OK, Marc, you?
SCOTT: Yeah.
RIVERS: I'm going to go with just one name...
KWONG: OK.
RIVERS: ...Lupita Nyong'o.
KWONG: Oh, yes.
RIVERS: And this is for her performance in...
KWONG: From "Us"?
RIVERS: ...Jordan Peele's - yes, "Us."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "US")
WINSTON DUKE: (As Gabe Wilson) Who is that? Oh, it's a family. What, y'all scared of a family?
EVAN ALEX: (As Jason Wilson) A boogeyman's (ph) family.
DUKE: (As Gabe Wilson) OK.
RIVERS: So in "Us," this Black middle-class family gets terrorized by this doppelganger family. Lupita Nyong'o plays the matriarch of both. It might remind you of Michael B. Jordan's role in "Sinners," but Lupita's two roles cannot be more different. Just the way her doppelganger character sounds is unlike anything I ever heard.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "US")
LUPITA NYONG'O: (As Red) There was a girl, and the girl had a shadow.
RIVERS: Just the physicality of these two different characters, like, the way they move is so different, you know, the doppelganger character moving sometimes like a ballet dancer, sometimes like a cockroach. She has to suggest in these two roles secrets that we're not privy to, but also let kind of cracks of the secret poke through her facades, right? There's so many layers going on underneath both of those performances. I mean, Lupita Nyong'o in "Us," that to me is one of the great film performances, period, in recent years.
SCOTT: Yeah.
RIVERS: Like, I'm astonished by what she does in that movie.
KWONG: That was NPR's Marc Rivers and Brianna Scott with our regular movie chat, Cineplexity.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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