AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Well, the federal government is set to run out of funding in just five days. And with no deal on the horizon, the White House is instructing agencies to look for people to fire permanently if a temporary shutdown does occur. It is an unprecedented escalation in the standoff between Republicans and Democrats on federal spending. And joining us now to talk through all of this is NPR senior White House correspondent Tamara Keith and NPR congressional correspondent Barbara Sprunt. Hello to both of you.
TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Hello.
BARBARA SPRUNT, BYLINE: Hi.
CHANG: All right, Tam, let's start with you. I mean, this proposal, if I'm not mistaken, is a major departure from what's historically happened to federal workers in the event of a shutdown, right? Like, we're usually talking about furloughs and such. Where is this threat coming from?
KEITH: Yeah. The White House budget office sent a letter to agency heads saying that a funding lapse would give the administration a chance to further cut the federal workforce, and it urged them to draw up plans for firing people who work on programs that are not consistent with the president's priorities. It also included the line, we remain hopeful that Democrats in Congress will not trigger a shutdown and the steps outlined above will not be necessary.
CHANG: OK. Well, as we said, it's T minus five days to a shutdown. Barbara, remind us where things do stand on negotiations at the moment.
SPRUNT: Well, House Republicans passed a bill that would fund the government at current levels through November 21, but it hasn't passed the Senate because Democrats are holding out for changes in health care spending. Democratic leaders were on track to sit down with the president today to talk about all this, but President Trump canceled the meeting.
KEITH: Yeah, he said it would be pointless because Democrats are making unreasonable demands. And then he blamed a potential shutdown on Democrats. So the usual back-and-forth, closed-door negotiations, shuttle diplomacy with the Hill that would normally be happening this close to a shutdown just isn't happening.
SPRUNT: Yeah, that's for sure. And top Democrats keep saying that they're ready to meet. You know, they want to discuss this, but they want more than a verbal agreement in the negotiations. They want their demands in written legislation. And if we're reading the tea leaves about Congress itself, I think it's telling that Speaker Mike Johnson isn't planning on bringing the House back into session until after this shutdown would begin.
CHANG: Yeah, that is a clue. I mean - OK, so Tam, let's just play this out a bit. Can the White House use a government shutdown to push through mass layoffs as they're describing they're going to do?
KEITH: Well, I called up Shalanda Young. She has been through many budget battles as a high-level congressional staffer and then as budget director in the Biden administration. And that's one of the questions I asked her.
SHALANDA YOUNG: A shutdown doesn't give OMB or White House any further authority to let federal workers go or do mass firings. So this is, at best, a negotiating tactic; at worst, a cover to do what you were going to do anyway, which is fire a bunch of federal workers.
KEITH: She expects that if a funding lapse were to happen and if the administration moved forward with this plan, there would be lawsuits challenging the legality of the moves, which would end up winding their way slowly through the courts like so many other challenges to Trump administration actions that are already being litigated. But she said significant damage to the government can be done in the meantime, and that would be hard to reverse.
One more thing to note, though, so far, all we have is this budget office memo or letter instructing agencies to plan for layoffs. We don't yet have those specific agency plans, so we don't know which jobs would be targeted for elimination or how many.
CHANG: That's - I mean, in many ways, wouldn't you say that all of this tracks with the basic philosophy of the Trump administration when it comes to its approach to cutting government programs?
KEITH: Very much so. This is on brand. So far this year, the Partnership for Public Service says more than 200,000 people have been pushed out of the federal workforce, with more cuts planned even before this potential shutdown move. And the White House has made no secret of its desire to have more power over how the government spends its money, regardless of what Congress passes.
CHANG: OK. Well, Barbara, leaving Pennsylvania Avenue for a moment and turning to Capitol Hill, is it fair to say some people in Congress disagree with this approach?
SPRUNT: Oh, I'd say so...
(LAUGHTER)
SPRUNT: ...Particularly the Democrats. You know, this is not only about the shutdown. I think it speaks to a larger, ongoing conflict between the White House and Congress. The White House has already rescinded funds that Congress appropriated. And, you know, lawmakers are generally pretty protective of that power of the purse. This is part of the reason that Democratic lawmakers say it's hard to make a deal with Republicans when it comes to funding issues, because they feel that Republicans in Congress have ceded that authority to the president.
CHANG: Well, tell us more about what Democrats are asking for specifically here.
SPRUNT: So Democrats want to roll back some Medicaid changes that were part of the president's tax and spending bill that he passed - or he signed earlier this summer, and they want to extend tax credits that are part of the Affordable Care Act. Those expire at the end of the year. And, of course, now they're also concerned about this OMB memo and potential firings of their constituents. I spoke to Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen today about this. He said the memo - in his words - is another example of the president taking a chainsaw to important services for the public and workers themselves.
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: This is nothing less than mafia-style blackmail. Essentially, the president is threatening to fire dedicated federal employees who have nothing to do with the ongoing political and policy dispute.
CHANG: Well, I have to ask both of you, 'cause you've covered other government shutdowns, I mean, how does this standoff compare to past shutdown standoffs?
KEITH: Yeah, I was chatting with Max Stier from the Partnership for Public Service, which is a nonpartisan organization that basically exists to make the government work better. And he told me, in past shutdowns, when they've happened, administrations have typically wanted to minimize the impact that the public feels. This administration, however, he says, sees a shutdown as a new opportunity to further tear apart the federal workforce and undermine agencies and programs that it does not like.
SPRUNT: And you know, what strikes me about this, I have to say, is that, like, both parties seem so sure that the other party is going to own the consequence of the shutdown. Democrats seem to be banking on the fact that the public will blame the White House and Republicans, and vice versa. And, you know, we hate to leave things at time will tell. But in this case, until a shutdown happens, it is hard to know which party is actually going to shoulder the blame of this. And we're talking a lot about politics and political maneuvering here. But we should say, like, beyond politics, a shutdown means paused services. It means dismissed workers. There are real consequences here.
CHANG: Absolutely. That is NPR's Barbara Sprunt and Tamara Keith. Thanks so much to both of you.
KEITH: You're welcome.
SPRUNT: Thank you, Ailsa. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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