DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Chuck Norris, the martial arts champion turned Hollywood action hero, died last week. He was 86. Norris broke into movies with a cinematic fight to the death against kung fu master Bruce Lee in "Return Of The Dragon." Norris first learned karate in Korea while serving in the Air Force. Back in California, he kept at it and became the world middleweight karate champion, a title he held for six years. He also set up karate academies, where he taught several Hollywood celebrities.
One of his students, Steve McQueen, encouraged him to pursue a career in acting. Norris went on to make a dozen kung fu films and became a martial arts cult hero. Then he diversified to become an all-around tough-guy action star. His films include "Code Of Silence," "Invasion U.S.A.," "Delta Force," "Missing In Action" parts I and II and "Braddock: Missing In Action, Part III." From 1993 to 2001, he starred in the TV series "Walker, Texas Ranger," playing a lawman you don't want to mess with. Here he is confronting a couple of bad guys.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "WALKER, TEXAS RANGER ")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Ranger Walker, I'm so sorry about the tragic death of your partner.
CHUCK NORRIS: (As Cordell Walker) Sure you are. I know you're the one that arranged the hit. And I know you're the one that pulled the trigger.
GRAND BUSH: (As Simon Trivette) I assume you have proof.
NORRIS: (As Cordell Walker) If I had proof, you'd be dead right now. But I'm going to take you down. And I'm going to take you down hard.
BUSH: (As Simon Trivette) You want me, Walker? Hey, you got me.
NORRIS: (As Cordell Walker) Just name the time and place, if you got the guts.
DAVIES: Chuck Norris also wrote an autobiography titled "The Secret Of Inner Strength." We're going to listen to Terry's 1988 interview with him. She asked him to describe the kind of karate he learned while stationed in Korea.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
NORRIS: Well, it's - at that time, it was called Tang Soo Do. Today it's more prominently known as Taekwondo, which is an emphasis on kicking.
TERRY GROSS: OK. Now, you taught karate in America, won many karate championships. Bruce Lee got you your first film roles. Did you already want to break into acting when you met Bruce Lee?
NORRIS: No, not at all. When I did the film with Bruce, I had no desire to be an actor. I was still in the karate business and still competing. And I did "Return Of The Dragon" strictly as a kick (laughter).
GROSS: (Laughter) No pun intended, right?
NORRIS: No pun intended, right.
GROSS: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Well, that was in 1972. Would you describe the fight scene that you were in in "Return Of The Dragon"?
NORRIS: Well, when, of course, the fight scene is to the death in the colosseum in Rome about basically, like, two gladiators pitting their skills against each other. And it was very exciting, you know, to be in the colosseum in Rome and just look out into the arena there and think that a few hundred years ago, they were doing it for real. So it was quite exciting, actually.
GROSS: Now, you both choreographed the scene together - right? - yourself and Bruce Lee?
NORRIS: Yeah. We'd worked out together for about three years prior to this. And so when we decided to do the film - the fight itself, he said, well, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I'll do this, this and this, so we just kind of choreographed it right there on the set.
GROSS: Now, you did Korean karate, Taekwondo, and he was a Chinese form of karate...
NORRIS: Right.
GROSS: ...Kung fu. Were there any differences in style that you had to reconcile before getting the choreography together?
NORRIS: No, not at all, because we'd both studied many other styles as well. And I'd studied the Chinese and - you know, with Bruce and the Japanese style. So I was really a conglomeration of several styles. And so was Bruce Lee. Bruce didn't stick strictly to the Chinese styles. He'd studied many different styles. So there was a - you know, there was a real good, you know, ability of us working together.
GROSS: Now, in the scene, I imagine that you didn't really hit each other hard. I mean, what are the rules there...
NORRIS: (Laughter).
GROSS: ...When you're choreographing a fight scene for the movie? How did you do it in 1972?
NORRIS: Well, we - you know, of course, we didn't go to hurt each other. There's light contact. But just as we would make contact, we would, you know, pull the blow right at the point of contact rather than following through with it, you know, so we could finish the fight.
GROSS: Is that something you're used to from sparring?
NORRIS: Yeah. You learn to control your kicks, and especially from my movies. You know, I have to learn to do that in my films to keep from hurting the stunt men.
GROSS: Did you enjoy kung fu movies at the time? Did you see a lot of them?
NORRIS: I - in the beginning, I did, but they became redundant. They were all the same. You know, when you have a movie that just has fight from beginning to end and there's no story or no emotion involved, it becomes redundant, and it gets boring after a few minutes of watching kick, kick, kick, punch, punch. And so it's important, I think - that's why they died out. That's why there's no longer those kind of films in the American market, is the fact that after a while, you get bored of them. That's why I didn't want to do those kind of films.
GROSS: But it early on, didn't you want to convince Hollywood that you would be a good star for kung fu type American vehicles?
NORRIS: In the beginning, of course, when I was trying to break through into the film business. You know, when Bruce Lee died, the karate market or the kung fu market in movies died with him. All producers thought, well, since Bruce died, there was no one else that could fulfill that bill. And so when I finally broke in in '77, you know, I was - you know, I was known as the kung fu star (laughter), you know, in Hollywood or in the media.
But I knew that if I was stuck strictly as a kung fu star, that my career would be very limited, and I'd never - you know, I wouldn't be able to grow. So I started working more into the action orientation of my films with, you know, martial arts or karate integrated into the action. And that way, I wouldn't be limited to being strictly a kung fu star, and that's what's worked for me.
GROSS: What were some of the things that you had to learn in order to broaden into more general action films?
NORRIS: Well, learning how to act was the main thing.
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: I - and remember, I jumped into the films with absolutely no experience as an actor, had very little acting classes and so forth. So I had to kind of learn on the job, and it wasn't easy to do that.
GROSS: Well, Steve McQueen, who was a friend of yours and whose son studied at your karate school, gave you some advice on acting. He told you not to verbalize what's already on the screen. It almost seems like that became a code for you. I mean, you're really known in your movies as not...
NORRIS: I think...
GROSS: ...Not saying a lot.
NORRIS: Most of your action actors, Stallone, Schwarzenegger, I think all of us kind of stick to that mode to - you know, is that when there's something to say, say it. If it isn't important, then keep your mouth shut, you know. And, you know, whether that's right or wrong is up to debate, but, you know, the thing is that we're not Dustin Hoffman, who's got that ability to express in words.
And - 'cause he can express in words and you can visualize them. But not many actors have that ability to verbally express himself, and you can, in your mind, see what he's saying. And so the thing is, if you can show it on the screen visually rather than verbally, it's much better.
GROSS: Let's talk about stunts some more. Now, do you always do your own stunts?
NORRIS: Not all of them. Some I don't do. If it's way out of my range of ability, then, of course, I won't do it. I don't do fire burns, which is really extremely dangerous.
GROSS: That's - what? - like you're walking through an exploded bomb or something like that?
NORRIS: Right. Or catching on fire and things like that. I - you know, is - I wouldn't want to do. There's just certain things - or high dives. I am not a high diver, so I have to have a stunt double do that, but anything that requires balance or coordination or a certain amount of strength, then I can do that.
GROSS: Well, I remember in "Code Of Silence," there's a great scene in which you're fighting with someone on top of a New York City train.
NORRIS: Right. Yeah, I did that.
GROSS: And the train is moving. That's you.
NORRIS: Yeah.
GROSS: That wasn't a stunt man.
NORRIS: No, no, I did that.
GROSS: Now, the train was actually moving while...
NORRIS: Yeah. It was...
GROSS: ...You were doing that, wasn't it?
NORRIS: ...It was doing about 35 miles an hour. In fact, you know, the thing is the stunt man that I was fighting with was a little bit apprehensive about me doing that because we were relying on each other to keep our balance on that train, because we're 50 feet in the air. That's an L-train. We're 50 feet in the air. And he said, I don't know if you should do this or not. I said, well, look, let's do it with the train stopped. If you feel I'm not capable of doing it, then we'll bring in a stunt double. So we did it with the train stopped and he said, no, no, he says, you'll do OK. So we - so I did the fight with him.
GROSS: Do you carry any kind of insurance?
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: Well, of course, the studio gets very upset when I do that because if I do get hurt, then production stops and it costs a lot of money. But, you know, the audience today is very sophisticated. They look. They look to see if it's a stunt double or if it's the stunt man or it's the actor doing it. And so if it's something that I can do, then I like to do it. Especially - when you do an acting scene, you really don't know if it's good or bad until it gets on the screen. But when you do a stunt, you know immediately whether it's good or bad. And there's an immediate, you know, exhilaration when you do a stunt that you don't get as a - in an acting scene.
GROSS: I want to get back to this fight scene in "Code Of Silence" on top of the train. How did you and the stuntmen that you were working with keep your balance while the train was moving? What were some of the tricks to doing that?
NORRIS: Well, the tricks is just having the ability to maintain your balance up there. It's - you know, we had the fight prearranged, of course, but we're rolling all over the top of that train, and we're really controlling each other. You know, we're preventing each other from falling off. So we're really balancing each other as we're fighting on top of that train. And you just - you know, either you have the athletic ability to do it or you don't have it.
GROSS: Now, as you're actually holding onto each other and trying to help each other keep balance, you have to look as if you're fighting each other...
NORRIS: Yeah.
GROSS: ...And trying to throw each other off the top of the train.
NORRIS: Yeah, exactly.
GROSS: Can you talk a little bit about how you kind of make it seem like you're trying to throw the person off the train while you're really hanging on to them?
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: Well, it's kind of a hard thing to describe, you know, because you're up there and you just - you know, you're just doing the thing as strong as you can without losing your balance. And a couple of times, you know, I - well, I broke my balance once, but he controlled it for me, and then he broke his balance once, and I brought him back on balance. And it's just a matter of being able to have the experience and the ability to do - to be able to do that.
GROSS: OK. Let's look at fight scenes for a second. When you're choreographing a fight scene where you'll be using martial arts, are there certain things that you think have to get into the scene, like a certain number of kicks, or...
NORRIS: No.
GROSS: ...A certain number, you know, a certain amount of, like, really dazzling stuff?
NORRIS: No. The main thing when I try to - when I do a fight scene, I try to make it as real as possible. You know, the thing is that if I'm fighting two guys - is one thing. If I'm fighting four - like, in "Code Of Silence" I fought - what? - 12 or 14, and I got the daylights beat out of me, you know (laughter). I didn't win, because it would have been totally unrealistic for me to whip that whole barroom. And so, in turn, you know, I wound up losing that fight. And - but that's the realism of it.
If I'd have whipped everybody in that barroom, it would have been totally unrealistic. And no matter how good you are as a martial artist, you only have so much ability. And so, in turn, I wound up losing that particular fight, but I tried to make it as exciting as - and as dramatic as I could before I got whipped.
GROSS: You have a kind of spin kick that you do.
NORRIS: Yeah. Spinning heel kick, yeah.
GROSS: Would you describe that - what that is for listeners who haven't seen it?
NORRIS: Well, it's like having a baseball bat in your hand and the swinging of - you know, like a baseball - like a batter would swing at a ball. And - but you torque your whole body around in a full circle, and your leg swings around like a bat would. And it's extremely powerful kick. And I have to be - when I do that in my fight scenes, I got to be very, very careful because if I hit one of my stunt men with that, it would cause real serious damage.
GROSS: In your autobiography, you talk about having to break the pain barrier in karate. And you've had a lot of broken bones...
NORRIS: Bones.
GROSS: ...During your years as a karate teacher and as a karate student - broken hands, broken noses. So what do you mean when you say breaking the pain barrier?
NORRIS: Well, you're able to eliminate and really ignore the pain. It's something you practice and train, and you get to a point where you're able to really ignore the pain.
GROSS: Is this something you've had to practice as a stuntman, too, you know, in your role as doing your own stunts?
NORRIS: Oh, yeah. That still doesn't mean I like pain.
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: 'Cause I don't like pain. I'd prefer not to be hurt than being hurt. But the thing is, like, in "Firewalker" I did. I broke my ankle in the second week in the filming, so I had to go eight weeks with a broken ankle, and I couldn't put a cast on because I was still filming, so I had to keep it taped through the whole movie. So it was painful, but, you know, you learn to work with it.
GROSS: Other times when a stunt has gone wrong, when someone who you were fighting with actually connected instead of almost connected or when someone fell off something that they were supposed to be landing on?
NORRIS: Well, my poor brother has taking a tremendous beating. I've knocked him out twice. I broke his leg once, and so he's taken the worst beating of all the stunt men I've worked with 'cause I work with him so much that sometimes we get carried away a lot of times, and I try to get - either I try to get too close to him or he tries to get too close when I'm kicking at him. And so, in turn, we've made a little bit of contact, and he's had his injuries from our fights together.
GROSS: Chuck Norris is my guest. I recently saw your new movie "Missing In Action, Part III: Braddock" (ph). And, you know, it's interesting. You're without a shirt during...
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: ...A good deal of the movie. And I wonder if that's intentional, you know, to show off all the muscles?
NORRIS: No, not really (laughter). 'Cause I'm not an Arnold Schwarzenegger, but, you know, in the torture scene that you saw, you know, it was conducive to not have the shirt on. But...
GROSS: Conducive to what?
NORRIS: Well, you know, 'cause I'm being electrocuted and all the stuff here (laughter), you know, so, you know, they had - you know, had to be able to see the reaction of my body being electrocuted.
GROSS: Can I tell you my reaction to that scene?
NORRIS: Sure.
GROSS: Well, just to describe it, you're being tortured by South Vietnamese, right?
NORRIS: North Vietnamese.
GROSS: North Vietnamese. Well, it's hard to...
NORRIS: Well, he's a Cong - now he's a - from the - Saigon, yeah.
GROSS: OK. And they've kidnapped your son. So you're being tortured in this cell. You're suspended by your hands. Your hands are tied over your head and you're standing on your toes. Now, your son is in bondage in a chair in front of you, and there's a gun pointed at him. And the torturer tells you that if you step down - you know, you're on your toes...
NORRIS: Right.
GROSS: ...But if you - if your heels touch the ground and your arms lower about an inch, that this gun is going to go off...
NORRIS: It's a shotgun, yes.
GROSS: ...Yeah, and shoot your son. Now, seeing you kind of writhing up there with all your muscles exposed, it struck me as almost a sexual bondage scene?
NORRIS: (Laughter) Was it really? Well, is that good or bad? I don't know (laughter).
GROSS: I'm not trying to put any value on it. It just struck me, and I was wondering if that was conscious or not.
NORRIS: No, not with me, it wasn't conscious, no. I didn't (laughter) - I didn't see it as that (laughter).
GROSS: (Laughter) How did you see it?
NORRIS: But maybe the women might. I don't know (laughter).
GROSS: Or some men might. I don't know.
NORRIS: I don't know, really.
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: 'Cause I don't see myself as that way, so (laughter). But it's interesting you saw it that way. But the thing is, what we were trying to, you know, show the mental torture as well, because, you know, here he is trying to force my feet down so the shotgun will go off and kill my son. So it was the tension and the mental torture that was going on as much as the physical torture, 'cause, you know - 'cause it doesn't, you know, work out that way.
DAVIES: Action hero Chuck Norris speaking with Terry Gross. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with martial arts champion and actor Chuck Norris. He died last week at the age of 86.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: A lot of adults in America, especially, like, parents of children, get very upset at certain action movies in which there's a lot of violence depicted. Now, I understand that you actually get more upset by movies that are sexually explicit.
NORRIS: Well, the thing is, when we talk about violence, again, it's how you do it. If you provoke violence on the screen, if it's a provocation of violence on the screen, then I don't think it's done in a very negative way. What I try - my films are kind of a retaliation against violence. And I don't see that as a bad thing for children to see.
And I've got a kind - I kind of have that reputation, I think, with the audiences, with the families throughout the country, that they don't mind their children coming to see my movies because it's action-oriented but not - but there's no extreme language. And there's no strong sexual scenes in the movie. And I think most families are more concerned about that than they are the action sequences in the movies.
GROSS: Well, there's a scene in the movie. And this is part of the commercial that is being shown on television to advertise the movie. You're basically told by the CIA not to go into Vietnam and don't step on any toes there. And you say, I don't step on toes, I step on necks.
NORRIS: Yeah. Well, it was funny how that term came up. I was in New York about a year ago and some kids were following me down the road, you know? And so they're all, you know, so they're talking to me and all this stuff here. And one kid says, man, he says, you don't step on toes, you step on necks, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: And that's how I remembered that. So that term kind of stuck in my mind. And so when the movie came about, I said, hey, that's a - I like that terminology (laughter). So that's why we inserted it into the movie.
GROSS: In your movies, your character is constantly being provoked to use his martial arts skills and to pull out guns and knives (laughter) as well. Do people ever try to take you out in real life?
NORRIS: no.
GROSS: Have you been called on in real life to use those skills?
NORRIS: I've never had to use it. I've been all over the world and traveled everywhere. And I've never had anyone, you know, approach me in that respect. I think, mainly, again, it's the philosophy that I demonstrate on the screen. It's not a guy who's walking around looking for trouble with a chip on his shoulder. That's what brings that type of people on to challenge you.
It's a guy who doesn't want trouble. But he's forced into the situation to have to deal with it. And with that philosophy in mind, it's not the type of character that people think that you're walking around looking for trouble. And so, in turn, I don't think - that's probably one of the reasons I haven't been encountered that way.
GROSS: I'm sure that knowing the martial arts gives you a lot of self-confidence. Have you ever used that to psych someone out in a potentially violent situation?
NORRIS: Not in an antagonizing way. Again, when you see trouble happening, you try to diffuse it before it becomes uncontrollable. And I've had to do that several times, where I've been able to diffuse a potential physical altercation before it got to that extreme. And that's part of - and the thing is, if you don't get emotionally involved and you analyze the situation of why it's happening, generally, you can get out of it.
And especially when the person realizes you're not doing it because you're afraid, but you're doing it just because you don't want the trouble. And they can feel that. They can generally get a sense of that. And when they do, then if you give them out, then generally they will take it.
GROSS: OK. What effect do you think you've had on the American view of maleness?
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: God, Jesus, I don't know.
(LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: I don't know if I've had any effect on that respect. You know, because, again, I don't even think of me having a maleness type of an effect on the audience. I just play a particular type of character that I enjoy being. It was a character that I demonstrated as a karate instructor for 15 years. And I've tried to carry it on into my screen life. And, you know, a guy who has a certain compassion for life and people and doesn't want violence. But then he's put into a position that there's no choice but to deal with it. And we all would have to do that in our life if we're forced into it.
GROSS: Well, Chuck Norris, I want to thank you very much for talking with us. Thanks for being with us.
NORRIS: You bet. My pleasure.
DAVIES: Chuck Norris spoke with Terry Gross in 1988. He died last week at the age of 86. Coming up, we remember Augie Meyers of the Texas Tornados. He helped shape the sound of Tex-Mex on his vox organ. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
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