MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Here's another perspective from Ireland now. Lisa Breslin has been organizing a protest campaign against the Pope's visit called Say Nope to the Pope. Breslin and others have claimed tickets for tomorrow's outdoor Mass, but they are not going to attend. Breslin told me earlier why she'd like Francis to face an empty park.
LISA BRESLIN: I suppose it's a new Ireland. It's not the Ireland it was in 1979 when the last pope was here. Somebody - him - he needs to be accountable for all of the undeniable abundance of abuse cases - and not just those cases, but it's years and generations of torture, neglect and murder by this church. And not everyone is brave enough still to come forward in Ireland and around the world. And it's time that the church see that, you know, not everybody is Catholic in Ireland anymore, like I suppose they thought they used to be.
MARTIN: Is this a specific response to the many cases of abuse of people by clergy that have come out in recent years, or is it a broader point that you're trying to make?
BRESLIN: Yeah, it's a much broader point. I think the clerical sex abuse cases is absolutely, like, one of the most important points. But Ireland itself is - we're at a crucial time in Ireland. This is not just about abuse cases. We need, in Ireland, a complete separation between church and state. And we think every human has the right for freedom of conscience and belief in a religion for both religious people and nonreligious people. And our country is so diverse now that we should be encouraging and operating for the good of all based on human rights, rather than religion.
MARTIN: Can you just give us an example, for people who aren't familiar, with what kind of separation you're talking about? What is the status quo that you would like to see changed?
BRESLIN: Well, most importantly, the Catholic Church has a complete hold over our schools and our hospitals, our courtrooms and our government. So we need to separate that. I mean, recently, in our news here, we're talking about most of our children here, they needed to be baptized or to have baptismal certs to get into - to get a place, a seat in our schools - in our public schools. You know, our constitution is bound by the Catholic Church. Ireland's just becoming more and more progressive, and I think we need to continue to address the existence of the church in Ireland and work to change that existing relationship between the church and state for the good of all, rather than for themselves.
MARTIN: But some might argue that that's already happening without needing to protest the pope. For example, the Irish have voted in recent years to legalize abortion rights. That happened a few months ago. That - divorce has now been legalized. It was previously extremely difficult to get. I mean, some might argue that that's already happening, and that's happening through the measures that already exist or the means that already exist. So what do you say to that?
BRESLIN: Yeah. I mean, it is happening, and it's great. You know, it is a time of change. You know, we have our marriage equality, and that's amazing work. And, you know, the people of Ireland did that, and they are showing, you know, our government and the world that it isn't the same Ireland. But, in saying that, the Catholic Church still do have a hold over our hospitals and our schools. And so I think everyone in Ireland is - well, not everyone - but I suppose the younger generation and - you know, really feel that this all needs to happen and needs to continue. This is just going to be a list of things that we - one of the list of things that we need to change.
MARTIN: Can I ask you - have you always felt this way about the Catholic Church, or was there some event or something that shaped your views that you'd be willing to share with us?
BRESLIN: Well, I suppose, you know, growing up in traditional Ireland, I was baptized as a child, so I'm - I suppose I'm still a member of the Catholic Church because once you are baptized, you cannot leave. Growing up, I was never - I came from a Catholic family. A lot of my family are devout Catholics. My grandmother is absolutely awfully ashamed at my protest, and I've embarrassed her. And I think me, as a person, it's just how I grew up and how I progress and how I feel. This is how I've felt from a very young age, and a lot of people in Ireland feel the same. They feel like they're hostages of a religion they don't want to be part of. And I'm one of those people.
MARTIN: That's Lisa Breslin. She is one of the founders of the campaign Say Nope to the Pope. Lisa Breslin, thanks so much for talking with us.
BRESLIN: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.